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Free Healthcare - The Debate

To my Americans brothers and sisters, while you stand on the threshold of government run health care. Please hear these words of wisdom.

  • Glitchen
  • posted by Glitchen
  • Date 7/4/2009 5:03:27 PM
  • Views: 6448
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15 Comments

Current View: 15 / Show all Comments

NickAngel : LVL 36: VP 4.4: said:2007 Winner

NickAngel

17 votes NegativePositive

142 days 16 hours ago...

The USA will find a way to make it not work.

Glitchen : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

Glitchen

0 votes NegativePositive

142 days 16 hours ago...

Thanks for the votes guys. 2nd top video on the list for July 5th. The Film is "Prairie Giant: The story of Thomas Douglas".

I hope you all get health care.

Flynn_2006 : LVL 46: VP 5: said:

Flynn_2006

-6 votes NegativePositive

142 days 15 hours ago...

Socialism - noun

An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.

x60sec-Assassinx : LVL 24: VP 3.3: said:

x60sec-Assassinx

0 votes NegativePositive

142 days 15 hours ago...

Fuck it, Universal Health Care for all, just raise the taxes a lil bit and its all gravey

exploder : LVL 49: VP 5: said:

exploder

30 votes NegativePositive

142 days 11 hours ago...

^ Flynn_2006:

"its the threat of losing business that create competition and only competition guarantees lowering prices and more efficient service."


Funny that. In Canada there is a thriving medical industry. Profits and competition and innovation. Lower prices than in the USA too.

Why?

Because public health care isn`t the opposite of capitalism. It`s effectively the enforcement of public fairness with respect to health care costs. In the USA, the health industry has had your people bent over and assraped for decades. They make OBSCENE profits.

Are obscene profits really the only motivation to good healthcare? I should hope not, that would be a sad and pathetic thing if it were true. Or are Americans really that selfish? I surely hope not. I think it`s more a case of your country being run by rich fucks who see no reason to write fair rules so long as the public keeps bending over and spreading their cheeks wide.

generic_imitation : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

generic_imitation

6 votes NegativePositive

142 days 9 hours ago...

i just think people look at it like "it`s worth what you pay for it, but if it`s free than it`s crap."

Glitchen : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

Glitchen

18 votes NegativePositive

141 days 21 hours ago...

I watched it. I see bias and misinformation all over it. I caught the anti-union attack at 4:08 of that video. If the government provides your health insurance, you can move jobs all you want.

Remember when a government has to pay for health care, you will get preventative medicine because the best cure is not getting sick in the first place.

While private health care systems makes its money off of sick people, so preventative medicine would hurt profits for drug companies.

Hey, America is a capitalistic place, why not let the individual choose. I`m sure we`ll see who has the best market. *evil grin*

Crompee : LVL 28: VP 3.7: said:

Crompee

6 votes NegativePositive

141 days 8 hours ago...

I love Flynn`s responces in this thread.. They seem to be what i`d describe as the definition of stupidity.

"its the threat of losing business that create competition and only competition guarantees lowering prices and more efficient service. If government runs health care system, there would be no threat to them if they fail to deliver."
Thats what works in the private sector yes. However, universal healthcare is not in the private sector.. Its in the public sector. The threat to the goverment if they fail to delivery, is that they get voted out. A Healthcare scandel is one of the worst types of goverment scandel in a universal healthcare system. In the UK, a goverment cannot win an election unless they show support for the NHS :)

o, and talking about efficiency? the price per head in a universal healthcare system is on average half of what it is in the private sector (Except for the UK, which it is 3/4 the cost). However, its not just the cost which proves efficiency, its also the coverage.. a Universal Healthcare system provides 100% coverage, while how much does a Private healthcare system provide? 50%? if that?

"I wouldn`t call canadian health care system thriving. medical industries like drugs companies yes. Because they are for profit. If government destroy the market system and impose price control, all you get is delay service, long wait time and wasteful spending like in the Canadian health system."
^^ You get a slight delay in service due to the volume of customers and also the priority of the problem. Its nothing to do with destroying the market system. Wasteful spending is certainly a problem, however.. Its certainly not a reason not to give every citizen free healthcare.

Please watch the "sick in america" report, it will explained everything.
^^ o good god, you`re actually telling someone who lives in Canada, that you know more about there healthcare system as you watched a completly biased video on it? You completly ignore the fact, that he lives there and has to deal with it everyday that he is ill.. and what he tells you is that it absolutly pwns.

In conclusion, you can find horror storys on anything, the main `horror` story for a universal healthcare system is that sometimes there is a long wait.. The main horror story for a private healthcare system, is that there is no wait.. You are refused treatment. Which is worse when you put them side by side?

Ask the population in any country that has Universal Healthcare and the vast majority will always go for a universal healthcare system over a private one (Yes, there are some people in every country which would like a private healthcare system.. but they are always the ones which are rich).

exploder : LVL 49: VP 5: said:

exploder

8 votes NegativePositive

140 days 21 hours ago...

^ Flynn, "Can you explain to me why I should give up choices and let the government spend my money for me and somehow because it`s the government, they make it better?"

Yup. The government has quite a few strengths that individuals do not:

- Independance from profit motive. Making lots of money NEVER has any bearing on how to care for a person`s health. Public healthcare is the only known answer to get healthcare providers (at all levels) thinking about their patients instead of their wallets.

- The ability to make law and set public policy, and do so wisely. Individuals can`t make the rules, we have a GOVERNMENT to do it for us. A public healthcare system has the deep insight and direct participation needed to properly steer laws and policies. That way the private sector is forced to work for the public good (drug companies, equipment suppliers, trianing & professional orgs., unions). Government still makes some health laws and rules without a public healthcare system, but they end up listening to the only experts available: the private sector. And guess who`s side the rules favor, STRONGLY.

- Bulk purchasing power. Just like Wallmart, only for anything medical, and on our behalf.

- The ability to hire real experts to make good decisions. You alone don`t have the time or knowledge to do that for yourself.

- Inside knowledge. Business and industry keeps secrets. Government breaks those secrets, gets to the truth, and makes properly informed desisions.

- Openness. Public healthcare doesn`t keep secrets in the name of comptative private business. So we can hold them accountable for what they do, how much it costs, the descision making process behind it, etc.. Private healthcare = closed doors.


Public healthcare isn`t perfect. There are greedy, corrupt, and incompitent fuckers everywhere in both industry and the public sector, so nothing is ever perfect. And governments are supposed to be "of the people" and "for the people", but they sure as shit don`t feel that way most of the time.

Government run, public healthcare, is technically healthcare RUN BY US AND FOR US, NOT FOR MONETARY PROFIT. To whatever degree that doesn`t work out, the problem is with us, not the basic idea of public healthcare. The solution therefore lies with the integrity of the people. It`s absolute pure bullshit to say that somehow the free market can just magically solve all these issues.

We have to realize that the need for health care is as fundamental and absolute as our need for roads, schools, fire halls, a government, armies, etc.. NONE of these things is just left up to the free market to provide as it may, and for good reason.

Take an honest look at this: all around the world, 90% of people who have government run universal healthcare wouldn`t have it any other way. The ones that complain are the 10% of rich people who are always pissed off whenever they can`t buy exactly what they want whenever they want. Fuck them.

exploder : LVL 49: VP 5: said:

exploder

9 votes NegativePositive

140 days 21 hours ago...

^ and BTW, the idea of "free healthcare" is not that it costs us nothing. No shit.

Free healthcare means: available according to need, paid for according to ability.

It means we unite and reject a world where people are left alone to sickness and death.

It is the recognition that there are alot of people who can`t take care of themselves, for whatever myriad reasons. Mental illness is a perfect example, where many crazy people are just way too fucked up. But there are many many other people who also genuinely need the help.

If you want to push for Nazi eugenics, go ahead and let them all just curl up and die somewhere, preferably well out of sight. I`m sure it`s not your problem, and they won`t breed as much.

I think we can and must do better. I support laws that MAKE EVERYONE PAY for this as a universal minimum basic kindness. If the pricetag is too large, go ahead and fight for better management, cut corners elsewhere, promote and teach healthier living, whatever. But fuck you if you don`t want to hold up your corner of this huge burden. If it`s too heavy, then help lighten the load, don`t just drop it on everyone else`s toes.

I don`t want our world to be a place where people are left to just fend for themselves in the face of sickness and death. That is an ugly reality past, and we know how to do better. We have the resources to do better. We must muster the willpower and integrity to do better.

exploder : LVL 49: VP 5: said:

exploder

4 votes NegativePositive

140 days 20 hours ago...

^ Laser eye surgery is cheaper now than when it first came out. Of course. And if it was public, then the ever improving technology, constant pressures for reducing costs, and competative pressure within the private sector where they develop the equipment, would STILL have driven down the costs.

A universal public healthcare system still supports competition and development. There are well informed buyers who shop around for the best and cheapest gear. The industries that supply the stuff still compete.

But LASIK is arguably the kind of procedure that can honestly be called elective. Very few people will ever die for want of LASIK. Or for a boob job, or a facelift. So fine, leave it private, who cares?

And BTW, if you have really horrendous vision problems, I think that Canadian medicare can cover LASIK if your doctor deems it neccessary. I don`t know what the conditions are, but it`s possible to have the govenment pay. Has that ruined all the wonders of the private market?

Red Heaven : LVL 37: VP 4.5: said:

Red Heaven

25 votes NegativePositive

140 days 20 hours ago...

And I`ll speak coming from an "impoverished" area of the United States.

Here where I live you`re lucky if you can get a job. And when you do get a job, assuming you`re not a waiter/waitress, you`ll be damned lucky if you can get over minimum wage. Shoot, as a shift manager I got paid $6.25 an hour and was living the high life.

And that`s with absolutely no insurance. Got let go by the company and I have no health insurance.

I`m deathly afraid of getting extremely sick or injuring myself grievously. What happens if I break an arm? I have no insurance. Just last year I got an internal and external ear infection.

I had to wait a very long time in the lobby. Then I had to wait in the doctor`s office. He checked my ear (excruciating pain...), prescribed me some medication, and sent me off.

I owe the hospital over $1,300 for a single doctor`s visit and medication.

It`s nice to talk about health care with insurance.

But your song will change the second you`re out on your ass and the insurance won`t pay or isn`t available to you. Then you`re straddled in debt for something that should be available for everyone. Everyone gets hurt and sick, bar none. And you`re living in a luxurious seat if you can pick and choose a health care provider.

But the reality not EVERYONE CAN AFFORD IT. Some regions of this country don`t get the silver fucking spoon. And I consider myself marginally lucky since I have a PC and internet. That`s pretty fucking sweet.

And I had to pinch every penny I earned in that $6.25 to pay for it. So -exccccccccuuuuuuseeee meeeeeeeeee- for not saving every last dollar so I could pay a company for necessary services at the expense of EVERYTHING ELSE.

moakley : LVL 9: VP 1.8: said:

moakley

15 votes NegativePositive

140 days 18 hours ago...

America is the only first world country with out universal health care because all the shit heads in congress are paid off by the pharmaceutical companies.

HerbPwr : LVL 10: VP 1.9: said:

HerbPwr

8 votes NegativePositive

140 days 17 hours ago...

I can testify from living in Canada that the health care system is alot better than alot of countries.
Yes you have to wait at the hospital if u stubbed your toe. But it all depends of the case. If you got shot, then you get first attention obviously.
Secondly you get to choose your own family doctor, waiting is usually a 5-30mins depending on if you showed up on time for you appointment. Plus drugs are alot cheaper than the US. Ive never paid more than $50 for the best anti biotic. Thats why all the old farts from florida head North to get cheap drugs.
And lastly US health insurance is a joke, I mean you pay half your pay check for abit of coverage that they can deny you for a smallest technicality. The long debated argument of choice is BS propoganda of the Republican party/faux news. Its really simply for any americans on this site. Would rather have a politician/government stand between you and your health care or big corporations and insurance companies trying to fill their fat wallets. I mean look how well the US market system did without controls and govt overwatch. Just think now what will happen if police and military is all privatized.

Basically my peeps south of the border need to find a balance between sweden and its current model. Canada can be a template to build on...Just my 2 cents in the matter

HerbPwr : LVL 10: VP 1.9: said:

HerbPwr

7 votes NegativePositive

140 days 17 hours ago...

And for those who say USA cant pay for all this wihtout more taxes..thats BS too!!!. THe US spends trillions in IRAq and afganistan, and DEA law enforcement BS. SOLUTION: legaize weed, tax it, cut back law enforcement spending esp useless shit, bring the troops home or atleast fight for ppl that need the help like in africa, burma, or north korea. go green (wind turbines, solar power). Lastly flip the bird to insurance companies!

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